auch, could you guys re-size those pics, hard to read anything in here...

Many of the trailing edges were wire. That is why you see scalloped trailing edges.

The CFS3 mod and the Third Wire game will be nice additions to the WW1 arena but neither have the on-line capabilities that IL-2 FB has. So I'll be putting my money on the FB sequel.

Not just on-line capabilities but:

1) damage modelling

2) FM modelling

3) Stability of code

... - Let's face it: the Il-2FB code kicks @ss when it comes to combat flightsimming.

OK, I didn't think it was necessary to corroborate this with photos, but here goes:

http://www.collectors-edition.com/f-t-s_zeichnungen_drI_titelbild.gif

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_6.jpg

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_1.jpg

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww1/technika/repules/tipusok/fokker_dr1_4.jpg

http://www.aviation-militaire.com/Galerie/Paris_Elysees_98/018_01P.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Fokker_Dr1_on_the_ground.jpg

- the Fokker Dr. 1 definitely did NOT have big fat control surfaces. They tapered to a fine point, and were nothing like that Gennadich 3D-model.

This board definitely isn't like the ones frequented by us Red Baron 3d junkies...but I bet you'd like flying the old planes in the Great Air War. Great dog fights and closing speeds that permit you to see your adversary.

No 105 dit: >>At least 2 promising wwI cfs since the days of RB3D never saw the light of day. I hope this one makes it.>>

My thoughts exactly.

Au revoir en l'air,
LE~Heureux~sLt
Esc124
"Lafayette"

thanks Sensei, you put it more to the point about
debates on FMs. i just didnt want to go there.. at least here it seems the FM debates are more cordial, espcially now. Never really happened with RB.

as for the 'climbs like a monkey', that wasnt just von helton..

I agree with Low, Il2 would be a better platform to bridge between ww1 of Rb3 and todays technology.

as to Olegs(?) comment on not worrying about dynamic campaign, that isnt true! the lines were static for alot of the war, but having flights generated and not scripted is the best way to enjoy the air war and keep people interested for years to come. that is why Rb3d has endured, plus projects like Full Canvas Jacket to give it new life. Im sure the Old Rb3D community, if Il2/ww1 is done correctly, will come and make it flourish.

Been there, done that with my own efforts at a WWI sim. Having only anecdotal evidence leads to far more arguments than having facts sheets. I admire the effort being done here but to think having no data makes it easier, trust me, it does the exact opposite. Lacking hard evidence doesn't make them argue less. It makes them argue more.

No matter what approach a developer takes they will almost certainly tee-off a vocal portion of the community and there is little to no evidence to prove them wrong or you right. I've seen happen in every attempt so far.

Oleg was right to be cautious of this era of flight. The FM debates in IL2 will be thought of as a cake walk in comparison.

"As close as it gets" is good enough for me.

Hey that DR1 looks So good that it made me fire up Wings of war, for a quick Fix , but i just lov that game, with all the mods in it, its a hoot, i will fly my own barons DR1, until theres comes out
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/gambit168-baron.jpg

Just incase anyone else wanted some reference on these aircraft...I found a good site!

http://www.theaerodrome.com/

It seems to have all the major types of WWI fighters and bombers plus some statistics.

I think as far as making FM's go...you find out how much horsepower, the power and wingloading, weight, and a bunch of other things and plug them in and see where you get. Some anecdotal evidence ontop of that and you're probably good to go.

The one advantage is that fewer people know about reputations of WWI aircraft...none of them are really as iconic as the Spitfire and 109 (although the Sopwith Camel and Fokker Dr.I seem to be close).

The other thing being that I've seen a few of these types in the air and recently! The Brantford Ontario WWI Flying Club (not sure if thats the full official name) maintains and flies replica WWI aircraft (I forget which ones). There must be enough documents for them to get off the ground and fly the bloody things...

I think its not going to be a huge problem.

I'm sure there will be debates: my point is that FM's won't have to be changed incessantly, because the developers' guesstimate will be as good as that of the various fan groups...

Freycinet is quite correct. Aircraft like the Dr. I used a wire trailing edge attached to wooden ribs. Under the tension of the doped fabric covering, the wire was pulled in a bit which gave the classic scalloped trailing edge of Fokker (and some other) aircraft of this Period.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

The Fokker Triplane looks great, and we'll keep our eyes open for the weekly updates to come!

Oh btw, the Fokker Dr.I's rudder frame was made from 12mm rounded steel tubing, while the the horizontal stabilizer was from 15mm stock, and elevator's outline came from 10mm diameter tubing.

The Fokker triplane's tailplane was not wire-edged.

Fast work FlyX! - you added that before I could edit in a note to say that the tail surfaces didn't use a wire trailing edge, only the main wings.

Somewhere I have a stack of Windsock profiles of all sorts of interesting WWI a/c. I'll try to dig some out and scan them. Fascinating machines.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Indeed!

Paul Leaman's book Fokker Dr.I Triplane: A World War One Legend is probably the best, though the Windsocks are good too, especially for line drawings and paint schemes.

Here's an airframe photo from Achim Engel's Fokker Dr.I In Detail CD:

Just look to the RB3D world and you might understand how you couldn't be more wrong. Dynamix changed the FM significantly in every patch until they finally walked away from the project.

The FM has been changed and tweaked so many times due to so many opinions it isn't uncommon for people to have several versions installed with different FMs.

One of the last utilities to be written was one that made swapping out FMs easier to do.

As I said, been there and done that. If you really believe lack of data is going to make the problem easier all I can say is you are ignoring nearly 10 years of sim history.

Yeah, right. That approach has worked great in squelching all the FM debate in IL2 right? Let's start with the first two most well known WWI aircraft--The Triplane and the Camel. Just on the variables you mentioned there are sources that differ on each one of those factors by as much as 50 percent. Sorry, but just look at ANY flight sim where the data is much better and that naive approach has done ZERO to squelch the debates and whining and forcing of a developer to cave in to someone.

I hope these guys do well as I very much want to see a WWI sim. But thinking it's going to be easy and lack of data make the FM wars go away is just being extremly naive and short sighted. There is a much larger fan base for these aircraft--with their own opinions--than you think.

This product will NEVER see the light of day.

The aerodrome is a very good site, no doubt about it. but for different reasons. there is more to developing FM's than just wieghts and wing area. the aerodrome is more for general coverage of ww1 flight. the forum there is the real meat as many ww1 historians frequent there. answering and posing questions of a wide variety of topics.

even if that site had all the variables we needed, there are other sources that will state differently. that has been proven time and again for discussions on ww1 crates.

if the developers of the next ww1 sim could spend time calculating and verifying the handling, speed and climb rates of the current replica aircraft, much of the debate would stop. but, that hasnt happened yet.

The Il-2 series has managed to keep the FM programming secret. It's quite unheard of in sim history, but the Il-2 series has actually not had anybody crack the FM code and make their own.

I know about the old history you refer to, but given the history of the Il-2 series, I think we won't see a fragmented community, FM-wise, with this new WWI sim.

I don't see FM improvements as a bad thing when they're imposed across-the-board with all users who download the latest patch, the problem is a fractured fan base, and that I think we can avoid, based on the Il-2 engine history.

In the il-2 update history I don't see the developers swinging around according to the whims of a majority of users. Rather, they've just corrected proven errors and added features to the FM.

There will be a lot less "proven errors" in a WWI sim, just because hard data is so much more difficult to come by, so I think there will be less discussions involving the developers, but of course there will be huge discussions among fans, that's a given when it comes to these sims.