Trying to re-learn employment of 4 AIM-120B against 2xMig25 and 2xMig29. Its 4 vs 1 after all so
what tricks can be used to beat those all suckers?

Using RWS after I bug, lock and shoot my 1st Slammer at 1st Mig 25 can I break lock and tag the 2nd
one or I need to "nurse" always that 1st AIM-120B to Pitbull?

Comparing to pretty scarce initial squeeks, frequency of audio emited by Migs radars gets higher
when they come closer. Does this mean they lock me up? Or they shooting at me already?

How would I know that their missiles are in the air?

In the PK circle there is another little circle with diagonal cross, whats it its purpose?

After mission is finished I seem do not have any debriefing or possibility to replay and tlearn on own mistakes. Can I get that somehow?

As usual thanks for all answers and help.

Hi Polak




Use labels to see what's going on. Then turn them off.
In a 1 vrs 4 BVR, fuel management will be important. Smart timing when to initiate your drag will make all the difference in fuel savings against 4 bandits loaded with 4 BVR missiles. Do not drag too soon. Learn how close you can get and still have an effective drag. Also know when to re-engage the fight. Make it your call, not his. Get alt and distance right before you turn back to fight again. To do this you must first have good situational awareness. That comes more with more practice. Don't try this mixed set of bandits unless you already can handle either of them in a 1 vrs 2.



With only 4 missles loaded, I'd try to get hits with all 4. Hold till pitbull is surest way if you can.



Probably means they've gone from buggin you to STT you.



Audible warning, missle launch light, a "M" in the RWR, a visual detection.



It's the intercept (attack) steering cue. Keep it inside the larger 120 reticle for intercept guidance.



Use the ACMI. Highly recommended.

Thank you for your valuable input -Axe-. Really appreciate.

Fight like a real fighter pilot:
1. 4v1 is a fight I'd turn away from and try dragging them apart... seeing if you can get them over friendly SAMs or into a friendly 4 ship
2. using weaknesses of the AI you can easily defeat a 4v1 ( but that is "gamey" ), picking a fight vs a 4-ship human is just plain dumb... i'd count you as damn good if you could even take one of our a/c down

All that aside: let's say you are attempting to protect an AG package and it's your job to go 1v4... well the decisions you've previously made to lose your wingmen will probably be made again losing yourself... it takes a good pilot to kill 1v4, it takes a great leader to know when to knock it off and get everyone ( AI included ) back to homeplate safely... i count a successful mission as: 1. everyone gets back to base 2. target destroyed ( or package protected... mission accomplished, ect )

Thinking like a suicidal maniac:
yes you can, but as soon as you break lock your missile will fly straight ahead, turning on it's own radar, looking for something to kill, if you break lock early its a fair bet the missile will just miss ( note the word missile starts with miss )... the longer you hold the lock the better the PK
good basic rule... if you are shooting... so are they...

of course -Axe-'s answers were brilliant... just thought I had to add my own BS into the mix

Hag

It is a Training Mission where as I gather what counts is to get familiar with weapon deployment (in this case AIM-120B) and not so much with tactical aspect of 4vs1 encounter. I got answer to my main question - do not break lock until missile goes pitbull. Then repeat the whole procedure hoping its not too late. Then RUN !

LOL, those "training" missions are something else, man. Make a TE with 2 J-5's at 40 miles and shoot at those.

You have to maintain a bug on the target to pitbull to really have any chance of hitting anything. You ought to be able to bug multiple targets, use TWS to guide multiple slammers to them, and have them all go pitbull nearly simultaneously. That's the way a real fighter pilot would go 1v4. That is, if a mission abort and RTB was somehow not an option, like hag mentioned.

Excellent advice It means more that appears on the surface too. It's experience talking.
So what does it really mean? To me, it means not to engage offensively without already having a defensive plan or set of defensive options ready to go.

Always plan on him getting his shot off.

I think what you think, haq

It's good to see common sense advice rather than Gung-Ho stuff. 1v4 = turn away
This is why I would reccomend making TE's for training in F4AF, the inbuilt training missions can lead you to develop dangerous habits.

Some of the more advanced BVR/AIM-120 tactics are not covered in the training missions.
Learning the stuff is better in a 1v1 or 1v2 engagement

My own general BVR doctrine is this..

1: Give youself an altitude and speed advantage over the bandit. The altitude gives you turning room and reversal advantage, the extra speed gives your missile longer legs ( as does the altitude advantage)

2: Get a radar lock ASAP, reduce bar scan count and scan width to burn through any ECM. If you see the enemy aircraft is using ECM due to the radar brick with cross, be gratefull as you will get a HOJ shot on him.

3: Determine target model type with an early slammer shot in STT to see if you can get a HOJ shot
The better equipped Mig-29's and Flankers are actually easier to shoot down than the basic models.
If you get HOJ in the HUD despite a clean radar brick, the enemy turned ECM on after you fired.

4: As soon as you get the slammer away, crank to gimbals and reduce closure further by coming off the throttle slightly. This will reduce the enemy WEZ and delay his missile launch (assuming he hasn't fired already) Or you can reduce closure by trading speed for even more altitude.

5: If your shot is HOJ you can reverse straight away, or support your slammer to pitbull. No HOJ you need to support the slammer to pitbull and then reverse in a hurry.

6: Make sure your reversal is precise WRT the notch angle/bandit heading offset, you want to make sure any missile he has in the air, gets planted on your six. The sims AI tends to fly pure pursuit when supporting missiles. So if you have him on gimbals before you reverse, he will likely be at your 10 or 2 o'clock. This means a split S turn away, needs to be flown with a 'twist' as you come out of it, to get rid of the angle off. As you are now running, stay in full AB until you know you are safe.

The above is basicaly a 'Chainsaw' BVR Rope a Dope which has the lowest risk factors other than not engaging in the first place.

So what you are saying is that in TWS if you have four bandits bugged, you can pickle off 4 AIM-120's and each will home in on a separate target? Does it actually sort and designate a firing sequence in the order they are bugged? Hmm, haven't had much luck with that one in this sim.

Frankly I have asked the same question and then tried to find some answers in the manual. It is my understanding that eventhough indeed TWS can track up to 16 targets which will show their aspects and other data when you move brackets over. That alone gives you better SA providing that there are many targets to sort out.

However, the procedure of bugging and actually locking any of those targets appears to be nearly identical as in RWS mode. One target at the time. Can't see slammers being able to lock and guide simultaneously. Do I get it wrong?

I remember the old "Fleet Defender" days where the WSO could designate up to 12 targets. Each were numbered on the scope and you could pickle all your Phoenix's and they would independently guide from 80+ miles out. Those were the days..rather expensive missles though. Probably worth more than the planes that were targeted..lol.

@vScorpion
What I mean to say is that if it were properly implemented in this sim, that's how it'd work. Yes, you're correct that you won't have luck (currently) doing this.

@Polak
TWS, as used in Falcon 4.0:Allied Force, basically works to give you better SA on the air picture. It establishes "track files" in the radar software and presents heading information, rather than a raw "blip" for a radar return. The procedure for engaging while in TWS is identical.

So, to all, what I'm saying is that Allied Force gets it "wrong" when it comes to TWS. In every other sim I've played and to everyone else I've spoken to who "knows" (i.e., has access to classified data), TWS is designed to guide multiple slammers to multiple targets, simultaneously. If you play some older sims like Fleet Defender or even the Jane's sims, this is how it works. You bug one target, it appends a "1" near it, then bug another. The new one becomes "1" and the previous becomes a "2". In Fleet Defender, I'd do this up to "6", then ripple fire 6 AIM-54's. I believe the Hornet and the Falcon support less than 6 AIM-120's, but it's all very classified. As I remember, as JF-18 implemented it, I could bug a primary and a secondary, guiding 2 slammers to their targets.

I consider this and the poor FLIR implementation to be the major drawbacks of the Falcon series (ignoring OF).

Edit: Ha! vScorpion, you're too fast... Yes, Fleet Defender kicked butt. I have an old DOS machine I built specifically to play that sim.

So I'll add, the procedure for slammers is currently

Fire
Retain "bug" until pitbull
Break "bug"
"Bug" next target
Repeat

I'm sure if you search the forum here, I've had this conversation before.

Sure it was somwhere, but perhaps not so "to the point" and easy to understand procedure, specially when it is already quite well trained and learned.

I bet tha most of the questions of newbies (speaking here for myself) is to restate and reconfirm rather all those procedures. After I learn something from manual the question arises immediately:
"is this how it is done, or perhaps there is other way" ?

Has anyone been able to get a "Mad Dog" to lock when fired toward an unbugged target?

I think FD was optimized for a 386 machine, otherwise you'd need the "Mo Slo" app which would slow down the speed. It was crazy on a 486 , if I remember. But the Carrier Ops were state of the art back then, I think they modeled both Case I and III.

Thats affirmative.
Several times I got it sucessfully locked and target splashed. Of course talking only from tiny experience of "built_in" training mission, but still I can definetely confirm "mad dog" working.

Actually, in Jane's F-15 and LOMAC, the first target you "lock" in TWS becomes your PDT (Primary Designated Target), and each subsequent target you lock - like your second, third or fourth - become your SDTs (Secondary Designated Targets). The first AMRAAM you fire will go after your PDT, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th will each go for the SDTs - that is, your second, third and fourth targets. If you were to fire a 5th AMRAAM, it will cycle back to your PDT.

Jane's F-15 had by far the best representation of any "true" TWS mode that I've seen. In Jane's F/A-18, I also thought the APG-73 could only support 2 AMRAAMs, which is more like a DRT - dual target track - which is a "special" TWS sub-mode.

Jane's F/A-18 was the same as F-15 - In both sims whenever I got a few bad guys (say 6) on my radar, I would order a pincer move, sort bandits and I would engage three.
Often, up to six bad guys would be reduced to two, one or zero on the first salvo. This obviously relied upon altitude advantages and technology advantages (IE the enemy isn't shooting AA-9s or AA-12s back at you the same way).
Point made though, JFA-18 and JF-15 were awesome for that....

Makes me want to play the Kola campaigns for JFA-18 again

TWS is a pretty severe restriction in F4:AF. I have been doing the ripple fire described earlier though (fire n, 5 second intervals, change the bug as each goes pitbull).