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#3378970 - 08/31/11 05:28 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Well, that would have made for one hell of a long film would it not?

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#3378992 - 08/31/11 05:53 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Trooper117]  
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One of the limiting factors between fact and film. Like condensed milk.


It's a Game. smile
#3379244 - 08/31/11 11:20 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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I have not been able to find too much about any 'MYTH' regarding BOB excepting that they were not the first into Berchestgaden.

The main website i could find , has this as the 'myth'

Quote:
The Myth is, that Easy 506th became the Band of Brothers in Ambrose's book because it was:

"Better than the other 26 rifle companies in the 3 PIRs of the WW2 101st ABD"

"DID MORE" to win the war, than the other 26 companies"

"Was 'more Special' than the other 26 companies"

"Sustained more losses than any of the other 26 companies"

"Had more interesting battles, stories or personalities than any of the other 26 companies"


WEBSITE

Everything i have read over the years regarding Sobel, plays out pretty much like the book and movie. Here is a good wrap up of Sobel SOBEL

I do not think there is anything in there that was too over the top and glaringly inaccurate as to make it a poor show.

Quote:
There's a part where one of the American soldiers--his name is "Compton"-- throws a grenade really really far and it hits the back of an enemy soldier. Apparently, that really happened. The soldier (in real life) happened to play baseball for UCLA and that's why he had such a strong arm and could throw the grenade so far. And he's still alive.
Go here for more info on him: COMPTON


Among the historical errors in the television series:

* The end of episode three states that Albert Blithe never recovered from the wounds he received in Normandy, and that he died in 1948. Fellow Easy Company Currahee veterans interviewed while writing the mini-series Band of Brothers had thought that Blithe did not recover from his wounds, which they mistakenly recalled as a neck wound (in actuality he was shot in the right shoulder), and had died in Philadelphia in 1948. Albert Blithe remained on active duty, was awarded the Silver Star for gallantry in combat, served in the Korean War and achieved the rank of Master Sergeant, married with two children. He died in December 1967 of complications of surgery for a perforated ulcer after attending a memorial ceremony in Bastogne and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors.

* Easy company is said to have been returned to England later than D+25 (1 July), but at the end of the episode, this is said to have happened on June 29. The last date is correct, since Albert Blithe got hit on D+25 (in the series), but got his Purple Heart (earned by being shot while investigating a farmhouse on D+25) on June 25.

* According to Parachute Infantry: An American Paratrooper's Memoir of D-Day and the Fall of the Third Reich, Richard Winters was promoted to Major before David Webster returned to Easy Company from the hospital after getting injured in Holland. However, in "The Last Patrol", Winters was still Captain until he received his promotion at the end of the episode.

* At the beginning of the ninth episode, "Why We Fight", the date says April 11, 1945 as the episode opens with the paratroopers overlooking German civilians cleaning up their streets. At the end of the episode, the show returns to this scene, at which point Captain Nixon tells the others that Hitler had killed himself. However Hitler did not kill himself until April 30, 1945.

* At the end of the final episode, "Points," it is stated that Technician Fifth Class Joseph Liebgott became a San Francisco taxi driver after the war, but most accounts, including that of his son, state that Joseph Liebgott in fact became a barber after returning home from the war.

* The series states that Easy Company was the first unit into Berchtesgaden and the Eagle's Nest, capturing the town and surrounding area without incident. Historians usually identify the first Allied troops to arrive as the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division who secured Berchtesgaden and the Berghof, followed four days later by the French 2nd Armored Division who secured the Eagle's Nest, then 1st Battalion of the 506th, led by Company "C." This, however, may be incorrect. The 2nd Battalion of the 506th came into Berchtesgaden by a different route and lost men in a skirmish with the crews of two German 88 mm guns. Controversy has come up in recent years as to precisely which unit captured Berchtesgaden, but in the book Beyond Band of Brothers, Major Dick Winters states "Major General John W. 'Iron Mike' O'Daniel's 3rd Infantry Division certainly seized neighboring Salzburg without opposition and may have had their lead elements enter Berchtesgaden before we (2nd Battalion, 506 PIR) arrived in force, but let the facts speak for themselves. If the 3rd Division was first into Berchtesgaden, where did they go? Berchtesgaden is a relatively small community. When I walked into the Berchtesgaden Hof with Lieutenant Welsh, neither of us saw anyone except the hotel staff. Goering's officers' club and wine cellar certainly would have drawn the attention of a Frenchman from LeClerc's 2nd Armored Division or a rifleman from the 3rd Division. I find it inconceivable to imagine that if the 3rd Division were there first, they left those beautiful Mercedes staff cars untouched for our men."

* In the final episode, "Points," Major Winters accepts the surrender of a German Colonel, who offers him an ornate Luger pistol. In the scene, Winters tells him to keep his sidearm, but in the Bonus Features DVD, the real Winters recalls the incident and shows the pistol (a Walther PP) he accepted. In Ambrose's book of the same title, he describes how when Winters examined the firearm, he found it had never been fired, and he hasn't fired it since. He shows this firearm in the HBO documentary We Stand Alone Together. Also in book Beyond Band of Brothers : The war memoirs of Major Dick Winters written by Cole. C. Kingseed with Major Dick Winters it is said that the pistol was accepted but the rank of the German soldier was a Major not Colonel.


Hers another good post about BOB..

Quote:
I can tell you from intamite experience that the stories portrayed in the HBO miniseries are very well recreated. Yes Spielberg and Hanks added some drama (the musical score was really thought out) to the series to make for more entertaining stories. But they went to the actual locals where the battles that Easy Company were involved in (France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Austria). You can still visit these sites today. I did.

Stephen Ambrose who was one of the preminent WW2 historians collected literally hundreds of hours of oral histories and interviews with the members of Easy Company along with many other veterans from the various military branches. He knew his stuff!

The European tour that I personally went on was conducted by another historian Ron Drez (who was a graduate student of Ambrose and a Vietnam vet himself) also on the tour was Jake Powers who was the historical consultant for HBO and was on the phone constantly with Hanks and Spielberg during the making. Jake is a West Point Graduate himself and grew up with some of the veterans of Easy Company. Both Jake and Ron got an advanced screeing of BOB before it came out and gave their approval.

Most importantly on tour were Easy Company veterans men who were in the foxholes 60 years ago. I'm telling the truth when I say, these men in their 80's spoke with pride at what they did, they could also laugh and joke about specific days and events.

Spears' run across the field that you mentioned (which I ran myself, [granted I did it without a rifle or a pack, and thankfull not under fire] was tough and miracouls enough on its own) This story was one well remembered by the vets. Spears himself describing the run said that during that time "his mind was blank"

One of the most important reasons to belive these stories (at least for me) is that the veterans often spoke with tears in their eyes remembering friends who did not make it back alive. Those are stories you don't often hear and I doubt would be lied about.

Other posters have heeded warnings to not totally trust Hollywood drama and exageration on war films, and I do as well but in the case of Band of Brothers EXTENSIVE attention to detail, local, and weapons recreation was taken. Many of the actors also met their real life counterparts and spoke to them about their experiences.

Sorry to get so fired up about this but when some people say its "rubbish" I have to strongly disagree. Until you actaully stand on Omaha beach or see the rows of graves in cemetaries across Europe the TRUTH, the REALITY of the stories becomes apparant.

Alot of other 'untold' BOB stories from the veterans still living can be found at

menofeasycompany.com

its the tour company I went through to see the battlefields of World War Two and has alot of great info and step by step the route Easy company took through Europe.

and possibly check out
armchairgeneral.com

it has a past article called "In their footsteps" written by a friend who was along tour with me and conducted interviews along the way and disscused this topic extenisivly.

A Myth has risen around the 101st and has grown huge but at its base it is based on heroic fact.
Source(s):
M.A. in history

If you are intrested on other specifics of the BOB story hit me up with a message and I can tell you IN DEPTH! hope this helps


For myself i have not seen or heard of any great news that debunks the 506th and the portrayal of them in BOB.And i would check as much as you can find out before you go stating that what those men did is 'myth' as such smile Or at least provide some info as to what exactly you are talking about.


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#3379386 - 09/01/11 03:28 AM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Ajay, Phil,

I'm not saying BoB is a myth, but it is known that there are some factual errors in the book and movie. Apparently, Ambrose's research into Easy Company did not extend beyond the stories he was told by veterans of the unit. And, I'm not saying the men of Easy Company were/are liars (far from it), but time does have a way of clouding the memory.

Beyond that, Ambrose has been shown to have committed plagiarism in some of his other works.

#3379574 - 09/01/11 10:18 AM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Cool as Luke smile i was going to mention memories and what time can do them . I have not read anything about Ambrose re the above, interested to find out though, cheers


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#3379689 - 09/01/11 01:48 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Well that was interesting.

Myself the only Ambrose book i own is BOB , and i actually read that after seeing the miniseries.I did not even realise that he had written so much or was so revered back in the day.The stuff about Eisenhower is rather odd to say the least.

Last edited by Ajay; 09/01/11 01:50 PM.

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#3379692 - 09/01/11 01:50 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Interesting input chaps smile


"Our name is Hornet Squadron, no bloody good are we.
We cannot shoot, we can not fight, nor march like infantry.
But when it comes to pay parade, we shout with all our might:
Per Ardua ad Astra, Up yours Jack we're alright!"

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#3384594 - 09/07/11 01:56 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Originally Posted By: Senseispcc
Why does the AI play correctly in little battle and stupidly in big battle?


Because there's a lot more to calculate in a big battle. They really work quite differently and should probably have two sets of AI, "Dogfight AI" and "Formation AI" (or just "Small" and "Big").

The fact that losses go down as numbers go up has been noted in several studies. The reason is of course that pilots spend more time watching their six.

Quote:
I am sorry but I do not believe Her Hartman that where claims made by fanatics Nazi pilots in the east by pilots claiming to daily claiming 6 or 7 plane downed I do not believe it


Even the Luftwaffe had trouble believing Hartmann's meteoric rise and sent people to investigate. They found nothing to complain about. As for comparisons, Hartmann was surely a great pilot but he was also operating in a target rich environment. He flew several missions per day. In the west it probably took more time to climb to altitude than for Hartmann to fly the mission, shoot down the enemy and return to base for a sandwich.

As for late-war German claims, I believe Caldwell & Muller in The Luftwaffe over Germany mention archival evidence that the German confirmation system actually did award too many kills in the last phase of the war. However this seems partly to have been because of the special rules concerning bomber kills (Abschuss etc). Overall the German system was fairly strict, as already noted, and checking kills was made much easier by the fact that they were fighting on home turf from mid-war onwards and could look for wrecks on the ground.


"I prefer to fly alone ... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me" - René Fonck
#3384731 - 09/07/11 04:56 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Interesting Guderian. By what other name would we know you? smile

#3384959 - 09/07/11 09:11 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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Originally Posted By: Senseispcc
...it is true that the German system was directed to make super score flyers and the other pilots were there as "faire valoir" second hands to the experten...


The German system was not "set up" that way. It was simply the result of having a cadre of highly experienced pilots who flew throughout the war, or until they got killed.

It's a noted fact in all air forces (and probably in all combat arms, although it's more evident in A2A combat because it's much easier to measure) that a small minority takes a disproportionate part in the fighting. This was evident in other air forces as well; the top Allied aces had scores that were far above the average pilot. What gave the German aces such incredible numbers was the nature of the Eastern front (as already noted) and their unlimited combat tours.

Many of the top German aces were in the prewar Luftwaffe, and almost all the others joined in the first war years. Almost all of them fought on the Eastern front as well. Why was this? Because pilot training declined sharply from ca 1943 and huge losses, especially on the Western Front, killed Luftwaffe rookies before they hade a chance to start their ace careers (the parallells with the VVS in 1941-43 are obvious).

Originally Posted By: bisher
Interesting Guderian. By what other name would we know you? smile


A similar one. wink


"I prefer to fly alone ... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me" - René Fonck
#3384968 - 09/07/11 09:19 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Senseispcc]  
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lol, a hint only eh, fair enough, though your 'Peoples Republic of Sweden' does look familiar, just can't place a name to it biggrin

#3432484 - 11/12/11 03:45 PM Re: COD same sickness than IL2 1946. [Re: Guderian]  
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Originally Posted By: Guderian
Originally Posted By: Senseispcc
...it is true that the German system was directed to make super score flyers and the other pilots were there as "faire valoir" second hands to the experten...


The German system was not "set up" that way. It was simply the result of having a cadre of highly experienced pilots who flew throughout the war, or until they got killed.

It's a noted fact in all air forces (and probably in all combat arms, although it's more evident in A2A combat because it's much easier to measure) that a small minority takes a disproportionate part in the fighting. This was evident in other air forces as well; the top Allied aces had scores that were far above the average pilot. What gave the German aces such incredible numbers was the nature of the Eastern front (as already noted) and their unlimited combat tours.

Many of the top German aces were in the prewar Luftwaffe, and almost all the others joined in the first war years. Almost all of them fought on the Eastern front as well. Why was this? Because pilot training declined sharply from ca 1943 and huge losses, especially on the Western Front, killed Luftwaffe rookies before they hade a chance to start their ace careers (the parallells with the VVS in 1941-43 are obvious).


Many forget that Hartmann did not begin scoring in earnest until the Summer of 1943, long past the time of Luftwaffe air superiority and technical supremacy.

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